[choerenz]

I looked at the Honda NX500. The reasons I rejected it were that it was 50lbs heavier than the 310GS, the dealer has a less than stellar rep, and they don’t allow test rises. While 100 lbs lighter than my 1250R, it seemed like a larger bike.

I used to ride the NC500X - so pretty much same weight and power. I really loved this bike and have thought abut going back to a Rally Raided version of this bike but it does feel significantly heavier than the 310. So for offroad, it would be less fun except when tractoring at very low speed. The torque on the 500 was excellent though and as a touring bike that may go offroad the honda would be ideal. The new F450GS should thread the needle perfectly for me and I'm guessing many others who just need a little more engine at the lower weight.

 

[Dougl]

Since I don’t go off road, I don’t have skin in this discussion. Obviously, if you need a lot of travel for severe off-road conditions, you’re stuck with a high seat height. I can flatfoot the 310GS. On the 390 Adv, which is 855 mm, I could manage balls of the feet. Any higher and I would be hopping around on one foot and backing into parking spaces uphill and that would be problematic for a street bike. I wouldn’t mind more power but I’m finding the 310GS adequate, especially now that I’m past 200 miles and can rev it past 6000.

 

[JerryG]

What about a lowered 2025 DR-Z4S? Stock seat height is 36.2 in. Drop it an inch and you're very close to your current height...plus the narrower seat and lighter weight would reduce the absolute effect of seat height. And at about 11inch suspension travel each end, you still have significantly more travel than the g310gs after dropping it an inch. Then there's the weight of only 333lbs. Plus, being a drz, you know the aftermarket will be huge. Plus 21/18 wheels.

I think the new DR-Z4S would be more a candidate for replacing my G310GS with something lighter (38 HP; 333 lbs).
I'd want something under 300 to go play like the I've seen street legal dirt bikes play.
Fact is, I'll probably just stick with my G310GS rather than expand my motor pool of bikes.
Everything you own, owns you right back. Among other things, I'm also trying to simplify by having less stuff.

I used to ride the NC500X - so pretty much same weight and power. I really loved this bike and have thought abut going back to a Rally Raided version of this bike but it does feel significantly heavier than the 310. So for offroad, it would be less fun except when tractoring at very low speed. The torque on the 500 was excellent though and as a touring bike that may go offroad the honda would be ideal. The new F450GS should thread the needle perfectly for me and I'm guessing many others who just need a little more engine at the lower weight.

JMo (& piglet) on advrider.com regularly talked up her CB500X which she kept throughout her G310GS ownership, but she didn't go back to her CB500X when she sold her G310GS, she went with a CRF300L or CRF300L Rally and is very active on that "CRF300L and CRF300L Rally" thread there. So, I'm thinking she liked lighter too.

A friend of mine recently replaced his too-heavy-for-him F850GSA with the much lighter CB500X. He really wanted the smoother twin rather than a thumper. It's early yet, but he likes it so far. Of course, once he saw the F450GS, he started scheming how to arrange his menagerie of bikes to add one of those. His menagerie: 4 bikes on Caymans; 1 on the west cost; and 3 in Asheville.

 

[DrewG310GS]

I think the new DR-Z4S would be more a candidate for replacing my G310GS with something lighter (38 HP; 333 lbs).
I'd want something under 300 to go play like the I've seen street legal dirt bikes play.
Fact is, I'll probably just stick with my G310GS rather than expand my motor pool of bikes.
Everything you own, owns you right back. Among other things, I'm also trying to simplify by having less

A friend of mine recently replaced his too-heavy-for-him F850GSA with the much lighter CB500X. He really wanted the smoother twin rather than a thumper. It's early yet, but he likes it so far. Of course, once he saw the F450GS, he started scheming how to arrange his menagerie of bikes to add one of those. His menagerie: 4 bikes on Caymans; 1 on the west cost; and 3 in Asheville.

So true. How much stuff do we really need???

Part of me likes the idea of something more dirt focused like a drz, 690 adv etc. But I think it's important for me (and probably others) to really keep stock of "the riding you do, vs the riding you think you do". On my last day ride out in the rain, i turned around on a few sections and opted not to ride them... they were more technical sections where a dual sport would make it a lot easier than on the g310. But odds are, even if I was on a DRZ I probably would not ride those sections on my own. Then when I'm with my current riding group, they mostly wouldn't want to ride those second anyway. So my current reality is that a better g310 (like a smoother, more powerful 450gs) would probably be a better investment than a dual sport. Or I need to find more adventurous riding buddies 🙂

 

[2024]

So true. How much stuff do we really need???

Part of me likes the idea of something more dirt focused like a drz, 690 adv etc. But I think it's important for me (and probably others) to really keep stock of "the riding you do, vs the riding you think you do". On my last day ride out in the rain, i turned around on a few sections and opted not to ride them... they were more technical sections where a dual sport would make it a lot easier than on the g310. But odds are, even if I was on a DRZ I probably would not ride those sections on my own. Then when I'm with my current riding group, they mostly wouldn't want to ride those second anyway. So my current reality is that a better g310 (like a smoother, more powerful 450gs) would probably be a better investment than a dual sport. Or I need to find more adventurous riding buddies 🙂

You summed that up nicely.
The stuff I'd want to ride on a dual sport/enduro type bike, I'd never ride alone. I'm too old & a fall could happen any time.
My son would have to be along because he's an excellent rider & has my total trust. But we can only ride together a few times per year. Next time is probably in either May or October 2025! I can't justify a WR, but could ride one of his!

I think I've discovered something by including my riding plans in his.
Neither one of us has to have one of everything.
There's no way he has enough time for frequent long distance touring, but he's welcome to use my K1200GT anytime.
There's no way I can justify a WR, but can ride his anytime.
His young daughter could easily want a bike as transport in a few years. There'll be a G310GS she's welcome to ride everyday if she wants.
We both have Bonnie's. A 73 for me & a 2018 for him. We both ride both.

We can establish a "stable" of bikes of virtually every type, that any of us can ride any time. They're all registered & insured in my son's name & he just adds riders to the policy as needed.
We share tools, expertise, everything motorcycle related.

I've had riding friends over the years that may have been open to doing this together, but it never occurred to me that who "owns" the bike is pretty irrelevant as long as there is trust. We can all use them all. It's been quite a revelation doing this exercise with my son over the last couple of years & I'm very grateful it has happened.

That's why a "Swiss army knife" bike that can sort of do most things, but does nothing well, has lost it's attraction. We buy bikes for specific purposes & share them.

 

[choerenz]

I think the new DR-Z4S would be more a candidate for replacing my G310GS with something lighter (38 HP; 333 lbs).
I'd want something under 300 to go play like the I've seen street legal dirt bikes play.
Fact is, I'll probably just stick with my G310GS rather than expand my motor pool of bikes.
Everything you own, owns you right back. Among other things, I'm also trying to simplify by having less stuff.



JMo (& piglet) on advrider.com regularly talked up her CB500X which she kept throughout her G310GS ownership, but she didn't go back to her CB500X when she sold her G310GS, she went with a CRF300L or CRF300L Rally and is very active on that "CRF300L and CRF300L Rally" thread there. So, I'm thinking she liked lighter too.

A friend of mine recently replaced his too-heavy-for-him F850GSA with the much lighter CB500X. He really wanted the smoother twin rather than a thumper. It's early yet, but he likes it so far. Of course, once he saw the F450GS, he started scheming how to arrange his menagerie of bikes to add one of those. His menagerie: 4 bikes on Caymans; 1 on the west cost; and 3 in Asheville.

Jmo kept her CB though. I think that as Jmo works with Rally Raid on new bikes/products you will see a lot of documentation on the performance of that new bike but it tells me something that she kept the CB and as a former owner I totally get it. Its a perfect bike for longer trips. The Honda CRF is also a bike that I considered but in doing the tradeoffs in weight/hp, I think the 310 is a better fit for me. Honestly, the 310 is nearly perfect - but I'd love 10 more hp

 

[DrewG310GS]

I just recently came across this:

CRF300L Big Bore Kit - Make your CRF a real 300!

Big bore kit for Honda's CRF300L and CRF300L rally dual sport bikes, increases displacement and compression ratio for more power and speed. Best way to increase reliably increase the CRF's performance.

crf300lbigbore.com

I believe it's Ari Henning (spelling?) from revzilla. His side hustle. Looks interesting on the dual sport end of the adv segment.

 

[JerryG]

This will put pressure on BMW regrading the F450GS price.

KTM has announced the 2025 KTM 390 Adventure R price...

• $6,999.00 (Plus freight: $575)
• KTM: "This motorcycle is designed and developed in Austria and assembled in India."
• Curiously, another source said the LC4c engine is made by CFMoto = 33 kW = 44 hp.
• 165 kg (364 lbs) without fuel + 14 L of fuel (30.8 lbs) = 395 lbs.

Link:

https://www.ktm.com/en-us/models/travel/2025-ktm-390-adventurer.html

advrider.com is saying it will be in US showrooms in April 2025:

https://www.advrider.com/ktm-390-adventure-r-x-models-join-lineup-for-2025/#:~:text=A%205%2Dinch%20TFT%20screen,dealerships%20around%20April%20of%202025

 

[JerryG]

Still nothing official on where it will be made, but most hope/think India...

"While both the brands haven’t given an official confirmation, we really hope the future BMW 450 cc bikes are manufactured in India as the pricing will be competitive"

Opinion: BMW F450 GS And TVS - Why The Twin Is For The Win

We look at the impact of TVS manufacturing the BMW F 450 GS in India

ackodrive.com

"the F 450GS will be fully manufactured by TVS in India and exported worldwide."

BMW to launch production-ready F 450GS adventure early next year

Just a day ago, BMW Motorrad unveiled its new adventure bike concept, the F 450GS, at EICMA 2025. Now, we have exclusive information that the production-ready F 450GS will be launched in the European market early next year.

www.bikewale.com

"Now, going by reports, the BMW F 450 GS could make it to India next year and probably even be made here, making the motorcycle even more interesting."

https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/bike-news/bmw-f-450-gs-could-make-it-to-india-next-year/3685995/#:~:text=BMW%20is%20likely%20to%20launch,made%20in%20India%20as%20well.&text=One%20of%20the%20motorcycles%20that,the%20motorcycle%20even%20more%20interesting

 

[meteficha]

I’m just wondering whether it will have tubeless wheels.

Having been through both the A1(M) and a muddy lane yesterday, there are only two things that would make the G 310 GS meaningfully better for me:

• 21/18 wheels, which the F450GS will not have.
• Cruise control, which we don’t know yet.

The new KTM 390 Adv R ticks both boxes (CC will be optional).

No good pictures in the mud, so here’s the top of a rocky hill climb:

 

[JerryG]

I’m just wondering whether it will have tubeless wheels.

Having been through both the A1(M) and a muddy lane yesterday, there are only two things that would make the G 310 GS meaningfully better for me:

• 21/18 wheels, which the F450GS will not have.
• Cruise control, which we don’t know yet.

The new KTM 390 Adv R ticks both boxes (CC will be optional).

No good pictures in the mud, so here’s the top of a rocky hill climb:

Nice pic.

I agree re tubeless, 21/18, and cruise control.

• Like all BMW GS bikes, the Concept F450GS does have cross-spoke tubeless wheels; also, the product manager mentioned that, like the R1300GS, off-road forged rims may be an option.
• I'd like 21/18, but it's not a deal-breaker for me because my G310GS with its 19/17 wheels has done everything I've asked it to do in 33,498 miles including 8 BDRs, the TAT, and Baja.
• Cruise control is a must for my next bike: I currently use a Kaoko throttle lock and a palm lever to mimic CC, but if the F450GS does not have CC, I'll stick with my G310GS or buy a KTM 390 Adv R.
• The concept version of the F450GS does not have cruise control (see below), but I think it will be a Premium Package option like the F900GS Premium Package.

The Concept F450GS does not have cruise control...
On the left below is my BMW S1000XR's left handlebar controls; all BMW cruise controls use the same button arrangement you see at the top of the controls behind the red hazard warning button.
On the right below is the Concept F450GS; it definitely has BMW handlebar controls (unlike the G310GS), but the BMW cruise control buttons are missing behind the red hazard warning button.

Since you mention mud: My last muddy encounter was on Section 1 of the Oregon BDR; it was super sticky and the only mud I saw on that whole section (~50 miles in either direction). I should have gone around it on the up hill side through the brush. Because I didn't, I crashed on my right side with my whole right leg rotated so my foot was pointed backward. I wasn't injured only because all the rotational force occurred at my hip as intended by the way my Rev'it Expedition Boots lock to my Asterisk Carbon Cell 1 Knee Braces to prevent rotation at the ankle and knee.

 

[meteficha]

I just rang my local KTM dealer. The 390 Adventure R will have tubed wheels. It’s a shame!

 

[choerenz]

I’m just wondering whether it will have tubeless wheels.

Having been through both the A1(M) and a muddy lane yesterday, there are only two things that would make the G 310 GS meaningfully better for me:

• 21/18 wheels, which the F450GS will not have.
• Cruise control, which we don’t know yet.

The new KTM 390 Adv R ticks both boxes (CC will be optional).

No good pictures in the mud, so here’s the top of a rocky hill climb:
View attachment 21375

Great picture. I believe the KTM 390 Adventure R comes with tubes - so not tubeless.

 

[choerenz]

I just rang my local KTM dealer. The 390 Adventure R will have tubed wheels. It’s a shame!

Ha - I just replied the same. Agree - it changes how I feel about the bike v. the other options coming out.

 

[choerenz]

While I'm only speculating, and I'm not even sure if it will come out, if the Tuareg 457 does arrive, I'm hopeful it comes with 21/18, cruise control, and tubeless tires. So I will probably wait a year or two (sticking with the 310) until all the options are clear and the gremlins have been worked out with the new bikes. Also, as we all know, the forums will figure out the real pros and cons of each bike so I think it will help finalize the decision on which of the new bikes will work best for me.

 

[meteficha]

Ha - I just replied the same. Agree - it changes how I feel about the bike v. the other options coming out.

Yeah. I’ve had my fair share of punctures. A 19/17 tubeless setup sounds like a better trade off than 21/18 tubed.

While I'm only speculating, and I'm not even sure if it will come out, if the Tuareg 457 does arrive, I'm hopeful it comes with 21/18, cruise control, and tubeless tires. So I will probably wait a year or two (sticking with the 310) until all the options are clear and the gremlins have been worked out with the new bikes. Also, as we all know, the forums will figure out the real pros and cons of each bike so I think it will help finalize the decision on which of the new bikes will work best for me.

The Tuareg 660 is close to a dream bike. But it weights 30 kg more than the G 310 GS.

The solution is to stop looking and keep riding the Baby GS 😊.

 

[choerenz]

Yeah. I’ve had my fair share of punctures. A 19/17 tubeless setup sounds like a better trade off than 21/18 tubed.


The Tuareg 660 is close to a dream bike. But it weights 30 kg more than the G 310 GS.

The solution is to stop looking and keep riding the Baby GS 😊.

Yeah I'm hoping the 457 is a lighter version of the 660 so that is why I'm so hopeful. I love the 660. I tested it but decided I wouldn't take it out on rough stuff over my 310. So instead I bought a Ducati Desert sled as my second bike. It is also a great bike with some off-road capabilities but i use it for more relaxed riding. But of course, my garage should be able to fit a third bike

 

[JerryG]

I just rang my local KTM dealer. The 390 Adventure R will have tubed wheels. It’s a shame!

I believe the KTM 390 Adventure R comes with tubes - so not tubeless.

Ha - I just replied the same. Agree - it changes how I feel about the bike v. the other options coming out.

Yeah. I’ve had my fair share of punctures. A 19/17 tubeless setup sounds like a better trade off than 21/18 tubed.

I'm stunned by this; I had wrongly assumed that because the original KTM 390 Adv was tubeless, the new R would be too. Unless tubeless wheels are easily obtainable, this will remove the KTM 390 Adv R from my "maybe list".

During my used RR wheels / smaller rear tire experiment in Mexico, 140/80-17 tubeless tire choice was limited. I ended up using:

• Mitas Enduro Trail XT+ Dual Sport Tire 100/90-19 Front [57T] (I would have used a Dakar version, but couldn't find one)
• Mitas Enduro Trail XT+ Dakar Dual Sport Tire 140/80B17 Rear [69T] (the Dakar version is described as "virtually puncture proof thanks to its reinforced carcass")

My Copper Canyon Ride was a bust (ignition coil failure; my 2nd; I now carry an extra), but the Baja Ride was great fun. The highlight of my Baja ride was a gpsKevin Red (Hard) Route that I rode solo because difficulties on some of his Blue (main) and Cyan (alternate) routes caused everyone else to balk at doing a Red Route. I figured I could always turn around or camp out if necessary. Camping out almost became necessary: It took me four hours to do the 40 mile Hard part and I arrived at the next gas station after dark with little fuel to spare; the station was closed, so I almost ended up staying at the hotel across the street, but the gas station owner (?) came out with a chem light and filled me up. In any event, my used RR wheels with the above Mitas tires performed marvelously. I put 4,494 miles on those tires: The front still looked new and the back was worn about half way down. Since I always start each major adventure with fresh tires, I bought another set for this year.

Given all this, like @meteficha (and @choerenz ?) above, I'll take a tubeless 19/17 over a tubed 21/18. I've been influenced in this: (1) Pretty much every time I've ridden with riders whose bikes had tubed tires, they've expressed their jealousy that my bike was tubeless; (2) On my Baja Ride, I encountered a KTM with a flat tire waiting at a hotel for his buddy to catch up so he could fix or replace his tube; and (3) Four months earlier on the IDBDR, a KTM rider stopped me and asked if I had tire tools so he could fix his flat tubed tire (he had chosen a different route from his buddies who had "their" tire tools). Itchy Boots is a contrary example on this: Noraly uses and prefers tube tires because breaking the bead of a tubeless tire can be problematic if you get a puncture or other damage that forces a tube installation (this may be her recognizing her own upper body strength limitations). For this possibility, I do carry a tube (18" to fit front or back); patches so I can patch that tube if it gets punctured later; and Motion Pro's BeadPro™ Tire Bead Breaker and Lever Tool Set so I can break the bead and install the tube. The only time I've ever used any of these was when I gave a couple of my patches to the above Baja KTM rider.

P.S. In my paranoia for backups and because it can fix a sidewall without breaking the bead, I recently added a GlueTread (external sidewall patch) Kit (gluetread.com) to my tire repair kit.

My G310GS (with Mitas tires) in San Juanico, Baja California Sur, Mexico:

 

[choerenz]

I'm stunned by this; I had wrongly assumed that because the original KTM 390 Adv was tubeless, the new R would be too. Unless tubeless wheels are easily obtainable, this will remove the KTM 390 Adv R from my "maybe list".

During my used RR wheels / smaller rear tire experiment in Mexico, 140/80-17 tubeless tire choice was limited. I ended up using:

• Mitas Enduro Trail XT+ Dual Sport Tire 100/90-19 Front [57T] (I would have used a Dakar version, but couldn't find one)
• Mitas Enduro Trail XT+ Dakar Dual Sport Tire 140/80B17 Rear [69T] (the Dakar version is described as "virtually puncture proof thanks to its reinforced carcass")

My Copper Canyon Ride was a bust (ignition coil failure; my 2nd; I now carry an extra), but the Baja Ride was great fun. The highlight of my Baja ride was a gpsKevin Red (Hard) Route that I rode solo because difficulties on some of his Blue (main) and Cyan (alternate) routes caused everyone else to balk at doing a Red Route. I figured I could always turn around or camp out if necessary. Camping out almost became necessary: It took me four hours to do the 40 mile Hard part and I arrived at the next gas station after dark with little fuel to spare; the station was closed, so I almost ended up staying at the hotel across the street, but the gas station owner (?) came out with a chem light and filled me up. In any event, my used RR wheels with the above Mitas tires performed marvelously. I put 4,494 miles on those tires: The front still looked new and the back was worn about half way down. Since I always start each major adventure with fresh tires, I bought another set for this year.

Given all this, like @meteficha (and @choerenz ?) above, I'll take a tubeless 19/17 over a tubed 21/18. I've been influenced in this: (1) Pretty much every time I've ridden with riders whose bikes had tubed tires, they've expressed their jealousy that my bike was tubeless; (2) On my Baja Ride, I encountered a KTM with a flat tire waiting at a hotel for his buddy to catch up so he could fix or replace his tube; and (3) Four months earlier on the IDBDR, a KTM rider stopped me and asked if I had tire tools so he could fix his flat tubed tire (he had chosen a different route from his buddies who had "their" tire tools). Itchy Boots is a contrary example on this: Noraly uses and prefers tube tires because breaking the bead of a tubeless tire can be problematic if you get a puncture or other damage that forces a tube installation (this may be her recognizing her own upper body strength limitations). For this possibility, I do carry a tube (18" to fit front or back); patches so I can patch that tube if it gets punctured later; and Motion Pro's BeadPro™ Tire Bead Breaker and Lever Tool Set so I can break the bead and install the tube. The only time I've ever used any of these was when I gave a couple of my patches to the above Baja KTM rider.

P.S. In my paranoia for backups and because it can fix a sidewall without breaking the bead, I recently added a GlueTread (external sidewall patch) Kit (gluetread.com) to my tire repair kit.

My G310GS (with Mitas tires) in San Juanico, Baja California Sur, Mexico:
View attachment 21378

@JerryG yes, for me, I would lean towards tubeless 19/17. While I'm not necessarily the most experienced rider, I have some good experience on 21/17 or 18 (Tiger 900, and some weeks on a T7 and 890 Adv R) I feel that I have better maneuverability with the 19" front (G310 GS, F700GS, and Ducati Desert Sled), which generally has helped me offroad more than the ability to roll over obstacles. As far as I can tell, my GS with its 19" wheel has not given me any issues on rougher terrain (e.g. NEBDR tracks). That said, subject to a test ride, I'd probably want a 21 over 19 tubeless pending a test ride to determine how nimble the bike is. I do think that the KTM would feel nimble. The last piece to the puzzle is of course converting to tubeless. I've done this on my Desert Sled and to the rear on my G310GS and I'm happy with the results, but its a hassle.

 

[Bullfrog12]

Two questions...
A. Is 385 lbs the weight with fuel or without? All of the BMW specs on their web site are without fuel so I would be really surprised if the 385 is with fuel.
B. Is the A2 requirement based on horsepower per pound with or without fuel?
Thanks